I was a food critic for 4 years. “When Someone Else Is Paying” was a feature I wrote, for The Columbia Guide to New York, pointing patrons to the best of the best in Manhattan. My senior year, I worked for Tim and Nina Zagat, reading surveys and composing blurbs. I ate for free all over Manhattan, and I never needed a date to pay. I’m no longer a critic… at least not of the food.
I don’t even attempt to pick up a tab on a first date. I know men like it, think it’s nice, blah, blah, but it’s lame. It’s like the encore at a concert. Your favorite musical genius bows and thanks everybody then waves himself off stage. Then we all keep cheering and clapping, but we know he’s coming back to the stage. Everyone knows; the house lights are still off. I say, skip that crap, save some time, and spare us the lameass formality. It’s not charming; it’s insulting. Though… if you are a woman, and you do offer, here’s the good thing. If he actually lets you pay for it; he’ll pay for it by never seeing you again. It’s better than the “is he nice to the busboy?” test because that’s as cliché as the Bronx Tale’s does she unlock your door for you two-step.
“I ordered the skate with brown butter sauce, but I had no idea I’d already had a skate staring at me from across the linen table.”
It’s not that I’m materialistic–though if the Choo fits… it really isn’t about the money. It’s about being a woman and feeling taken care of. If it’s raining out, and we’re circling for a parking spot, I would hope he’d be chivalrous enough to suggest dropping me off first while he looked for a spot. Opening doors, standing to greet people, and looking people in the eye are basic points of entry. Of course I believe it all comes out in the wash, that a woman should offer to pay, eventually, let him know she’s with him for him, not for what he buys her, or where he takes her. She’s certainly not with him because he takes her to restaurants with skate on the menu. Tell him you’re allergic to fish next time.
What a jerk.
Asked you for your card…
I would have smacked him.
I have a friend who swears that when she was in business school, a guy asked her out and, in doing so, explained that he was broke (school loans and all) and asked if it would be ok if they went "Dutch." She agreed and, when the check arrived, she put down her cash and he put down a 2-for-1 coupon. Smooth, huh?
Wow do I love preset gender roles…men and women are both guilty of it. The preservation of many relationships involves two things; The man pays for everything, and the woman makes sure she doesn't get fat. How sad is that? A gentleman pays, always. But if I'm going to pay, she BETTER eat something sinful! No salad! I'm gonna pay, you better enjoy it! Get the steak wrapped in bacon! Get the fetuccine alfredo! Heck, ask if they will just pour mayonnaise into a deep fryer and eat that! Gluttony is so much fun! Cheers…
Sincerely,
Matthew
Wow do I love preset gender roles…men and women are both guilty of it. The preservation of many relationships involves two things; The man pays for everything, and the woman makes sure she doesn't get fat. How sad is that? A gentleman pays, always. But if I'm going to pay, she BETTER eat something sinful! No salad! I'm gonna pay, you better enjoy it! Get the steak wrapped in bacon! Get the fetuccine alfredo! Heck, ask if they will just pour mayonnaise into a deep fryer and eat that! Gluttony is so much fun! Cheers…
Sincerely,
Matthew
It's interesting how people have different values on this. Personally, I think it's nice if a girl offers to pay on the first date, but certainly not required. But if they haven't offered to pay after a couple of dates, forget it. Like Stephanie says, it's not about the money – I'm just not interested in dating princesses without a sense of fairness.
It's my dream to date a guy who actually will take me out in public.
I would never allow a woman to pay for dinner on the first date (or the second date, for that matter). But I disagree with Stephanie; formality/cliche or not, it IS a sign of character when a woman *sincerely* offers to pay, or at least buy a round of drinks after dinner. It's a gesture and it's appreciated, no matter what the politically correct dating ettiquette says.
If a woman never even offers to reach into her pocketbook, I start to think "She has a sense of entitlement", and unless we REALLY hit it off, her number is deleted from my cell phone in short order.
Regarding gender roles in today's relationships… Isn't it funny how so many women like the "traditional" gender roles when it serves them, but when tradition means they're supposed to do all the cooking, cleaning, child care, etc, their tune changes?
It's the 21st century kids, shit is different, and tradition is a two-way street. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
God damn if Matty R (above) didn't nail that one down for good. Shut this site down. Liquidate. Move on. Universal truth has been acheived. Millian (John Mills) quest fulfilled. The greatest thing I ever did for myself was not locking down (that means marriage) before I was liquid (that means can pay for any date wihtout feeling any financial effect). Here is the spectrum: Man liquid/the woman is hot — rich bitch/boy toy eats free. That simple. There are millions of varations in between that of course. Steph just thinks she is worth the big show on the left. If she was a stock, she'd need to be shorted slightly. I'm not here to say what you are supposed to do – but it is what it is, and I call a spade a spade.
What about presents? What's the deal there?
Missk, I think I know your story. Been there, done that, too. He's using you. Ditch him now.
i don't see why women make such a fuss over this. Use common sense – if you ask someone out, it might be nice to pay the tab. Regardless if you're a man or woman. But I don't see anything wrong with going dutch – it's not the 1950's. You consider yourself an independent woman in so many ways…why is this the exception?
I always think if a person asked me on a date, he means to take me out, and if I asked him I mean to take him out. That sounds like a cop-out since I'm the girl and generally the askee, not the asker. But I think this really only holds for the first date or so. After that I'm just as keen to think up a plan and invite the guy along. Especially once you have established the initial interest in each other. Once we enter the "lets show each other all our favorite things" phase I loved getting us tickets to shows or events that I wanted to share with him.
Someone made a comment about "the guy pays and the woman makes sure she doesn't get fat." I feel like that is a pretty standard agreement– like I show a guy I care by taking care of myself and making the effort to look my best. I turn myself on getting pretty for him; I feel like the foreplay starts when I'm prepping for a date. When I'm well groomed, waxed, sweet smelling and moisturized, I can barely keep my mind off getting naked all through the date. Guys don't tend to prim the way we do (and personally i prefer my man a bit unshaven and rough), but they do pay for more dates. Theoretically this rankles, but we are partly just animals driven by desire. Women seem to respond more favorably to a guy who wines and dines us than a guy who primps himself but doesnt treat, whereas guys seem to respond more favorably to a girl that looks her best than an unkepmt sugar mama.
My girlfriend would be pissed if I didn't allow her to pay a portion on a date, or allow her to take me out sometime later in return. She's very big on financial equality in a relationship. I think it's a matter of perspective – use it or lose it.
empathetic: Nice post. My girlfriend thinks the same way, re: financial equity. Not to the point of keeping track, but you can get a sense of balance without keeping receipts and busting out the calculator.
We're both in our mid 30s, and have accepted that dating in this day and age is different than what we envisioned it to be 10, or even 5 years ago – and it's NOTHING like it was in previous generations.
It's also lame when a guy uses a coupon on a first date… CHEAP!
It boils down to: He does something nice for me, I do something nice for him. If we both like each other the same then it is a pleasant symbiotic relationship. If not, we should go our separate ways because in the long run, the relationship is dead.
I expect to be treated as an equal by a guy. I don't like being "the little lady" and I don't like being put on a pedastal. I think both are doomed to failure, since I've got a brain and a personality, but I'm also not perfect.
So anyway, as part of being treated like an equal, I also expect to treat him as an equal. So we go dutch. Or he pays for dinner and I pay for the movie. He pays for drinks and I pay for the gig. Something like that. I don't agree with being petty over splitting it straight down the middle (and I would have expected coupon guy to pay for 1/2 so we both got the advantage of the coupon), or arguing over who had the biggest meal. But we both contribute.
I tend to work on the basis of "start as you mean to continue". I don't expect my guy to be the breadwinner through our entire relationship (just while I'm home with the kids *g*), so I don't expect him to pick up the tab on the first date.
I guess it's all in how you look at it.
– OLS
who gives a shit about this?
"Going Dutch is nastier than giving head after anal sex"
I am all for the dramatic analogy to make your point, but from an outside perspective, yours is narrow. It reminds me of my tirades after dates that don't feel right. If it isn't about the bill it is something else. It is amazing how our unconsious spares us.
Someone who expects someone else to pay for them is a worthless heap of flesh.
If you think this is a question for thirty-something, think again. I dating again at 50 and it's as if the world stood still during the feminist revolution. The man remains the "human wallet" and women expect men to pay…and pay. The author of this article is being honest when she says that she "punishes" dates for not paying by making it the last date. Female friends tell me the paying criteria is based on whether they like the guy. Some offer to pay if they like him; others offer if the don't so he won't call again. It's so random. The author has/had a career; earned a living – what was the money for if not to share life's expenses. Yes, life's not fair, but the 20 -30% gap in salaries is not covered by men covering 100% of dates and time together. What about when there are no kids (me) or when men are retired (me) and no longer earning. I thought it was respectable that I don't want a woman's nestegg, but she has no qualms looking over my asset sheet to see if I'm in her league. This is what the the last 50 years of "progress" has yielded. If I want to "buy" companionship…I wouldn't be looking for a date.