"Furkid"…at first I thought Muffy was trying to swear and got something caught in her throat. But then I read it as two words. And it made sense. And it made me laugh. Nice post. True and true and true. Made me think that sometimes, the luggage doesn't neccesarily need to match to make a good set. Does it? Sometimes it just needs to be resilient; it has to be, in order to deal with all those bumps and bangings those bloody handlers often inflict upon bags.
i don't think the stigma comes from a fear of not measuring up to the loved-and-losts of a once-married's past. i think it's a fear that there is something wrong with the once-married… a fear that he or she has too much luggage, i suppose.
My friend is 26 and divorced and has the same problem. Another problem he has is bringing our drunk asses to his new girl's house. Aside from the puke on the floor and the stolen hubcap which adorns the front door, she had no food nor liquor left in the whole apartment. Needless to say, when Scott (other drunk friend) barges in the master bedroom at 6 am because he felt the need to take a shower, it was the last straw.
Well I'm no longer a "girl toy" but I've seen those kinds of relationships from both sides. In my twenties I dated, and married, as much as ten years older, now that I'm in my forties and dating again I've dated as young as 28 (reluctantly! mostly close to my own age).
My take: age is just a number. BUT it is an indication of life experience. What you take as the "confidence" of younger men is often ignorance and perhaps self-absorption. Maybe it's the proverbial "zip-less fuck" for you…
Older men, such as myself, are more likely to offer more self-aware and respectful companionship. But we can also be burned out from relationship baggage.
As far as divorce goes, I personally consider it an encouraging sign. ('Cause I prefer not to date women that are still married!) Marriage shows an ability to look to the future and make a serious commitment. Divorce isn't a good thing in itself, but it does show a capacity for independence and an ability to accept reality.
"furkid." I'm going to have to borrow/use that because lord knows I'm never going to have real children. Just great, furry, four-legged ones.
A younger man's virility is definitely appealing. That and these days, most guys in their early twenties are much more attractive than guys in their late twenties ever were. Human beings have evolved into a species of "Gluteous Nice-habilus."
somehow i'm guessing you're not blitzing these young bucks with your battery of first date questions. maybe i'm wrong.
personally i'm torn. historically i tend to lean toward the youngsters, if for no other reason than the tightness factor. lately however i've been more into the older girls–they're more aggressive, which is a huge turn on.
When speaking about men in their early 20's, the appearance of confidence is rarely indicative of actual confidence or self-assuredness. Quite often, it's an act and they're the most insecure creatures you'll ever meet. Let's face it, guys know that timid, nice guys end up as the "friend" and the confident (or even cocky jerk) guy with a little bit of "game" gets more ass than a toilet seat. But you knew that…
Speaking to the dating stigma of "damaged goods", I don't personally feel that divorced women are necessarily damaged goods (as long as they're childless). As a never-married guy in his mid 30's, I am quite aware that many good women married the wrong man the first time around. Twice divorced? The goods are damaged, baby.
Being as though I live in small town Westchester—where most of the "good ones" are married with at least two kids by age 30—I'm usually more wary of attractive women in their 30s who have never been married. Since I'm currently dating one, I hope I've been wrong about this.
I just don't think herpes and a divorced woman are a good comparison. The only thing similiar between the two is that if you don't ask, you might not know. Being divorced just means you made a mistake. People make mistakes all the time. Sometimes they are avoidable and sometimes they are not. Sometimes the mistakes are not even our fault.
Baggage is being divorced twice and being the cause of both divorces. It does send a red flag, but it doesn't mean that a guy should stop just because she has been married once or twice previously. An ex-girlfriend of mine is on her 3rd marriage (one before and two after we went out). She is a great girl, but just made bad mistakes in choosing and always fell in love too soon. She has finally found her match and now is happily married with one kid.
The only baggage that can be considered is having kids. Kids are great, but it just makes things that much more difficult because a proper man would want to be involved with his kids. So it just means he is always in the picture and makes it that much more uncomfortable.
Maybe it is just me, but I really don't care much about what went on before me…what bothers me more is what happens after me. I have become friends with some of me ex's, but I have never taken any of them back after we broke up.
Having an open mind about divorced people may be associated with knowing at least a few people who have had amicable divorces. If one has only known divorced people who are jaded and have latent unresolved issues that cannot be uncovered no matter how much one gets to know the person, a divorced person may appear quite unappealing. When it comes to evaluating prospective lovers or spouses it's better to have a detailed checklist that is free of labels, but that doesn't mean that concerns (e.g., jaded about passion, unable to trust, exaggerated fears…) reasonably associated with evaluating a divorced prospect are not included in the list.
Having an open mind about someone suffering from an STD is difficult. It's hard to put the risk and benefits in a perspective that would permit a rational calculus. My inclination would be to run, but I know that's contrary to my rational approach to everything in life. It's possible to have children through c-section so as to avoid exposing them to the herpes virus so it's not like contracting the disease is certain, at least for one's children. Precautions may allow one to avoid contracting herpes, but the possibility remains that some will contract it despite the precautions.
I guess one way to look at this situation would be to consider whether one would be willing to take the chance of getting a bad case of something milder like the flu 4 more times a year every year until death as a price for being or having been with someone with herpes.
For some people, even regularly contracting the flu may sound like too high a price to pay for one's soulmate. However, that could be because they have never been in a relationship in which they loved someone deeply, so an appreciation of the concommitant rewards is not there for them to incorporate in their calculus. I wonder how others feel about this. Would you tolerate the flu 4 more times a year as a price of being with your spouse or lover? When one is in love can someone even rationally make such an evaluation? Instead of the flu you can substitute something else you abhor. For example, you may want to use as a substitute arguing and screaming for an hour once a month or sleeping in separate beds 6 times a year on account of being upset with each other. With each sentence being typed, being single is becoming more and more appealing, but having had parents who were happily married for over 40 years still makes the grass of matrimony appear inviting and greener than that of being single.
I am in such a good mood today I don't want to work. I heard from Dan, and he is going to drive the not van to a buyer. Thanks for the virtual companionship everyone.
Historically, I relished dating older women. I enjoyed their experience and confidence and felt bolstered by their interest. My second time around, I married one. Of course our age difference grows increasingly inconsequential, but her dominant side still pumps me up.
Grammatical point-of-order: "willing to be at your beckon call" should read "… beck and call".
Call me naive but I personally do not understand why being divorced would put someone off at all. First, if I didn't meet women who weren't divorced my only prospects would be vacuous, right winged bible thumpers who are "saving themselves" or some shit. I end up with the kind of chick that won't take a drink unless it's a glass of wine with dinner and her husband (future, prospective one) would have to be present.
Yes I have had a woman tell me this.
Among the rest of us in the real world, most of us have been unsuccessfully married. Even though I've never been I know enough people who have that it just ain't no thang.
Think of your "stigma" as sort of a litmus test for vacuousness. If a guy is put off buy it that should tell you where he's coming from and that perhaps he's not somebody you want to be with.
OK, I probably sound like someone's dad. My apologies. But still…
To clarify things for Mister Priapus's question
above….Jewish men are notorious for only
wanting to marry a never-before-married women.
(However they'll screw anything else.)
It be more accurate to say that the
man's family exerts great pressure on him to
only marry a nice, non-divorced,
ethnicly jewish girl. Either reason is
ridiculously short-sighted, and the latter
simply bigoted.
well, as a Jewish guy who has tried both pre married and not , i must point out that the reasons behind the divorce are also important – some people just have a "divoce" personality, and it can be read like a book
I understand it. There is a stigma at being married & divorced in your 20's or early 30's. I agree the stigma isn't from the fear of not measuring up it speaks to the fear that this person is a runner. At the first sign of trouble they'll pack up & run. If a woman asks a guy why he's divorced and he sums up his past marriage with this sentence "She was a bitch." Run for the hills girls. I feel from every post of Stephs this longing to meet "the one" I just don't think he's out there as she's finding out. Learn to be happy with what you have right now. There may not be anything else.
While life experience and age do make a difference in twenty-something males, I think a willingness to grow should be more a factor in your selection. Plenty of guys are relationship dumb off the bat, but if you find one eager enough to learn outside the bedroom as well as in, you might have something worth sticking around for. Then again, I don't live in New York or hang with a hip crowd, so I don't know what your selection is like.
I love Greek tragedies, and I'm Greek!
You are way too young to be playing Mrs. Robinson! Get that idea way out of your head!
you have to be at least 40- there are no men too old or young for you right now. Although maybe I would draw the line at college graduates. I put an ad in Craig's List as an experiment and half of the guys who wrote were under thirty! Do they think older women just want to get laid? Mother Loves You! http://www.rentamother.com
I met what seemingly was "the one", the perfect guy,…to find out that he has herpes. It is. I would have preferred to hear that he had genital warts than going through a divorce at the time. Anything in my mind would be better. Selfish. That's me. My big issue initially was, Is he over her? Why did it end? Why did he marry so young (25)? What is wrong with you that you made this horrible decision/mistake? Currently 1.5 yrs later, I hope to wake up every morning with this man for the rest of my life and I want to marry him some day. It pains me to think that he has thoughtfully bought an engagement ring, gotten down on one knee, toasted champagne on his honeymoon, and bought a condo with her. With her. All before me. I feel like what we will have will not be special because of this and that is my selfish insecurities talking. Someone tell me I'm an a$$hole. I am afraid that if he proposes to me I will start crying. Crying because I know he's done this before and those words have left his mouth to another woman. Yuck. If I have learned something in this relationship it is that divorced people want meaningful relationships too (his words). And they don't want to be sold as used cars. I'm trying, trying so hard not to let this screw everything up. I believe its possible.
"If I have learned something in this relationship it is that divorced people want meaningful relationships too (his words)" – well, they say so… However, I don't believe it's true. Actually they are often afraid of a close relaionship. My bf is like that. Every time I feel we get closer, he suddenly dissapears. He says he loves me but now I know he will never marry me. He says he wants to be free!
"Furkid"…at first I thought Muffy was trying to swear and got something caught in her throat. But then I read it as two words. And it made sense. And it made me laugh. Nice post. True and true and true. Made me think that sometimes, the luggage doesn't neccesarily need to match to make a good set. Does it? Sometimes it just needs to be resilient; it has to be, in order to deal with all those bumps and bangings those bloody handlers often inflict upon bags.
i don't think the stigma comes from a fear of not measuring up to the loved-and-losts of a once-married's past. i think it's a fear that there is something wrong with the once-married… a fear that he or she has too much luggage, i suppose.
Your experience with guys being turned off by you being divorced reminds me of how someone described men's and women's views on relationships:
Men want to be a woman's first love.
Women want to be a man's last love.
"They're intimidated by the fact that I loved someone enough before they came along. They're worried they won't measure up."…that makes sense to me.
My friend is 26 and divorced and has the same problem. Another problem he has is bringing our drunk asses to his new girl's house. Aside from the puke on the floor and the stolen hubcap which adorns the front door, she had no food nor liquor left in the whole apartment. Needless to say, when Scott (other drunk friend) barges in the master bedroom at 6 am because he felt the need to take a shower, it was the last straw.
moral: Bacardi is not anybody's friend.
Well I'm no longer a "girl toy" but I've seen those kinds of relationships from both sides. In my twenties I dated, and married, as much as ten years older, now that I'm in my forties and dating again I've dated as young as 28 (reluctantly! mostly close to my own age).
My take: age is just a number. BUT it is an indication of life experience. What you take as the "confidence" of younger men is often ignorance and perhaps self-absorption. Maybe it's the proverbial "zip-less fuck" for you…
Older men, such as myself, are more likely to offer more self-aware and respectful companionship. But we can also be burned out from relationship baggage.
As far as divorce goes, I personally consider it an encouraging sign. ('Cause I prefer not to date women that are still married!) Marriage shows an ability to look to the future and make a serious commitment. Divorce isn't a good thing in itself, but it does show a capacity for independence and an ability to accept reality.
"furkid." I'm going to have to borrow/use that because lord knows I'm never going to have real children. Just great, furry, four-legged ones.
A younger man's virility is definitely appealing. That and these days, most guys in their early twenties are much more attractive than guys in their late twenties ever were. Human beings have evolved into a species of "Gluteous Nice-habilus."
somehow i'm guessing you're not blitzing these young bucks with your battery of first date questions. maybe i'm wrong.
personally i'm torn. historically i tend to lean toward the youngsters, if for no other reason than the tightness factor. lately however i've been more into the older girls–they're more aggressive, which is a huge turn on.
When speaking about men in their early 20's, the appearance of confidence is rarely indicative of actual confidence or self-assuredness. Quite often, it's an act and they're the most insecure creatures you'll ever meet. Let's face it, guys know that timid, nice guys end up as the "friend" and the confident (or even cocky jerk) guy with a little bit of "game" gets more ass than a toilet seat. But you knew that…
Speaking to the dating stigma of "damaged goods", I don't personally feel that divorced women are necessarily damaged goods (as long as they're childless). As a never-married guy in his mid 30's, I am quite aware that many good women married the wrong man the first time around. Twice divorced? The goods are damaged, baby.
Being as though I live in small town Westchester—where most of the "good ones" are married with at least two kids by age 30—I'm usually more wary of attractive women in their 30s who have never been married. Since I'm currently dating one, I hope I've been wrong about this.
Perhaps it's time for a new tack on this dating deal.
I think many of you devoted readers would enjoy a posting titled "How I Seduced Rachey-Rach".
Hahahaha what can I say Stephanie? I'm a guy!
Happy Holidays, all the best :)
I just don't think herpes and a divorced woman are a good comparison. The only thing similiar between the two is that if you don't ask, you might not know. Being divorced just means you made a mistake. People make mistakes all the time. Sometimes they are avoidable and sometimes they are not. Sometimes the mistakes are not even our fault.
Baggage is being divorced twice and being the cause of both divorces. It does send a red flag, but it doesn't mean that a guy should stop just because she has been married once or twice previously. An ex-girlfriend of mine is on her 3rd marriage (one before and two after we went out). She is a great girl, but just made bad mistakes in choosing and always fell in love too soon. She has finally found her match and now is happily married with one kid.
The only baggage that can be considered is having kids. Kids are great, but it just makes things that much more difficult because a proper man would want to be involved with his kids. So it just means he is always in the picture and makes it that much more uncomfortable.
Maybe it is just me, but I really don't care much about what went on before me…what bothers me more is what happens after me. I have become friends with some of me ex's, but I have never taken any of them back after we broke up.
Having an open mind about divorced people may be associated with knowing at least a few people who have had amicable divorces. If one has only known divorced people who are jaded and have latent unresolved issues that cannot be uncovered no matter how much one gets to know the person, a divorced person may appear quite unappealing. When it comes to evaluating prospective lovers or spouses it's better to have a detailed checklist that is free of labels, but that doesn't mean that concerns (e.g., jaded about passion, unable to trust, exaggerated fears…) reasonably associated with evaluating a divorced prospect are not included in the list.
Having an open mind about someone suffering from an STD is difficult. It's hard to put the risk and benefits in a perspective that would permit a rational calculus. My inclination would be to run, but I know that's contrary to my rational approach to everything in life. It's possible to have children through c-section so as to avoid exposing them to the herpes virus so it's not like contracting the disease is certain, at least for one's children. Precautions may allow one to avoid contracting herpes, but the possibility remains that some will contract it despite the precautions.
I guess one way to look at this situation would be to consider whether one would be willing to take the chance of getting a bad case of something milder like the flu 4 more times a year every year until death as a price for being or having been with someone with herpes.
For some people, even regularly contracting the flu may sound like too high a price to pay for one's soulmate. However, that could be because they have never been in a relationship in which they loved someone deeply, so an appreciation of the concommitant rewards is not there for them to incorporate in their calculus. I wonder how others feel about this. Would you tolerate the flu 4 more times a year as a price of being with your spouse or lover? When one is in love can someone even rationally make such an evaluation? Instead of the flu you can substitute something else you abhor. For example, you may want to use as a substitute arguing and screaming for an hour once a month or sleeping in separate beds 6 times a year on account of being upset with each other. With each sentence being typed, being single is becoming more and more appealing, but having had parents who were happily married for over 40 years still makes the grass of matrimony appear inviting and greener than that of being single.
I am in such a good mood today I don't want to work. I heard from Dan, and he is going to drive the not van to a buyer. Thanks for the virtual companionship everyone.
Historically, I relished dating older women. I enjoyed their experience and confidence and felt bolstered by their interest. My second time around, I married one. Of course our age difference grows increasingly inconsequential, but her dominant side still pumps me up.
Grammatical point-of-order: "willing to be at your beckon call" should read "… beck and call".
Call me naive but I personally do not understand why being divorced would put someone off at all. First, if I didn't meet women who weren't divorced my only prospects would be vacuous, right winged bible thumpers who are "saving themselves" or some shit. I end up with the kind of chick that won't take a drink unless it's a glass of wine with dinner and her husband (future, prospective one) would have to be present.
Yes I have had a woman tell me this.
Among the rest of us in the real world, most of us have been unsuccessfully married. Even though I've never been I know enough people who have that it just ain't no thang.
Think of your "stigma" as sort of a litmus test for vacuousness. If a guy is put off buy it that should tell you where he's coming from and that perhaps he's not somebody you want to be with.
OK, I probably sound like someone's dad. My apologies. But still…
To clarify things for Mister Priapus's question
above….Jewish men are notorious for only
wanting to marry a never-before-married women.
(However they'll screw anything else.)
It be more accurate to say that the
man's family exerts great pressure on him to
only marry a nice, non-divorced,
ethnicly jewish girl. Either reason is
ridiculously short-sighted, and the latter
simply bigoted.
well, as a Jewish guy who has tried both pre married and not , i must point out that the reasons behind the divorce are also important – some people just have a "divoce" personality, and it can be read like a book
I understand it. There is a stigma at being married & divorced in your 20's or early 30's. I agree the stigma isn't from the fear of not measuring up it speaks to the fear that this person is a runner. At the first sign of trouble they'll pack up & run. If a woman asks a guy why he's divorced and he sums up his past marriage with this sentence "She was a bitch." Run for the hills girls. I feel from every post of Stephs this longing to meet "the one" I just don't think he's out there as she's finding out. Learn to be happy with what you have right now. There may not be anything else.
While life experience and age do make a difference in twenty-something males, I think a willingness to grow should be more a factor in your selection. Plenty of guys are relationship dumb off the bat, but if you find one eager enough to learn outside the bedroom as well as in, you might have something worth sticking around for. Then again, I don't live in New York or hang with a hip crowd, so I don't know what your selection is like.
I have a 54 year old jewish male friend with herpes looking for a jewish woman to date/marry. She probably should also have herpes.
"Furkid" is going to be my word of the day tomorrow.
I love Greek tragedies, and I'm Greek!
You are way too young to be playing Mrs. Robinson! Get that idea way out of your head!
you have to be at least 40- there are no men too old or young for you right now. Although maybe I would draw the line at college graduates. I put an ad in Craig's List as an experiment and half of the guys who wrote were under thirty! Do they think older women just want to get laid? Mother Loves You!
http://www.rentamother.com
I met what seemingly was "the one", the perfect guy,…to find out that he has herpes. It is. I would have preferred to hear that he had genital warts than going through a divorce at the time. Anything in my mind would be better. Selfish. That's me. My big issue initially was, Is he over her? Why did it end? Why did he marry so young (25)? What is wrong with you that you made this horrible decision/mistake? Currently 1.5 yrs later, I hope to wake up every morning with this man for the rest of my life and I want to marry him some day. It pains me to think that he has thoughtfully bought an engagement ring, gotten down on one knee, toasted champagne on his honeymoon, and bought a condo with her. With her. All before me. I feel like what we will have will not be special because of this and that is my selfish insecurities talking. Someone tell me I'm an a$$hole. I am afraid that if he proposes to me I will start crying. Crying because I know he's done this before and those words have left his mouth to another woman. Yuck. If I have learned something in this relationship it is that divorced people want meaningful relationships too (his words). And they don't want to be sold as used cars. I'm trying, trying so hard not to let this screw everything up. I believe its possible.
"If I have learned something in this relationship it is that divorced people want meaningful relationships too (his words)" – well, they say so… However, I don't believe it's true. Actually they are often afraid of a close relaionship. My bf is like that. Every time I feel we get closer, he suddenly dissapears. He says he loves me but now I know he will never marry me. He says he wants to be free!