crazy

In ALL, DATING & MATING by Stephanie Klein48 Comments

Lately I’ve been obsessed with Psychology, though I suppose "obsessed" isn’t the proper word.  Interested.  I’m nearly tempted to begin reading my old college text books, if only I had the time and space for them, here in my small one bedroom life.  I’ve been told by a man once that he wouldn’t date anyone who had anything to do with Psychology.  "They’re all nuts," he said.  Then I told him it was my minor.  We toasted and he dates me still.  Another MID felt the real crazy women were always half-Jews.  "You’re the least crazy one," he qualified as if it was some concession.  And yet another MID believed (and don’t scream at me for this for the love of God) we choose the ones we date based on the femininity of their race.  He named races on his fingers.  Black.  Indian.  White.  Asian.

"What about Hispanic or Native American?  I mean, there are other races out there, ya know." 

"Yeah, yeah.  Shut it Klein and just work with me here.  It’s a theory not a thesis at this point."  So I stopped questioning and listened as I rolled my eyes.  This wasn’t the kind of conversation I wanted to have on a hungover Sunday."That’s the order of race as it’s mapped to masculine features.  Men will typically prefer dating women who are more feminine than they are.  So as a white guy, I’ll typically only date other white women and Asian chicks, and younger women of those races tend to be seen as more feminine than older ones.  That’s why men also typically are attracted to younger women, while women are attracted to older men.  Not old old.  You know what I mean."  I did?  "Stephanie, I’ve been with all types, but those are the ones I prefer.  Yes, before you go and yell at me, of course there are exceptions.  Of course there are very feminine black women in the world.  But the ones I’d be attracted to would have more feminine features.  Yes there is a lot more to the science than race if you then account for the proportion of her body, but that aside, it comes down to race as it relates to masculinity and femininity. "

It got me wondering about the idea of femininity, what makes something a feminine feature?  A dainty little Asian giggling beneath an umbrella?  Perhaps the new Nike advertisements emoting confidence with our more ample features are working to combat the stereotypes.  I fcuking love those ads.  They don’t just emphasize learning to love what you’ve got.  They make scraped knees and broad shoulders something to be achieved, for the love of femininity.

"It works for women, too.  They typically only want to date someone of their level or more masculine, so as a white woman, you have more attractive options than I do."

"Did ya ever think I have more attractive options because I don’t think the way you do?" Talk about crazy.

Comments

  1. Its like that book Memoirs of a Geisha!
    But if guys want girls more feminine then them then they should stop being such metrosexuals and spend less time grooming then we do!

  2. Ha! You just described the lesbian community dilemma. As for me (being a lesbian) I look for feminine features. However, I look for "what attracts me"… Sometimes I have found women who are less than feminine to be attractive. A lot has to do with personality- persona, and the way they carry themselves. A giggly Asian under an umbrella? hahaa!!!! That is a cute imagery, —-now let's talk about her personality and the way she sees life. That's what 'attractive qualities' mean to me.

    If I were straight (which I have dated men when I was younger)——-I always looked for a man who had broad shoulders—a sign of his ability to carry MY burdens… But I looked for that Mr. Italian tough guy ~ Someone who could protect me.

    On a personal note, I love the emotional connection that I get with my partner, who happens to be a woman. For straight/gays/bi's or whatever, I think it all has to do with emotional compatibility.

    Hmm. Psychology can make one think WAY too much.

    This post was very thought provoking. Loved it! :)

  3. Hate to say it, but I agree with the guy.

    Blacks (male and female) are more likely to be taller and heavier than average. Asians (male and female) are more likely to be shorter and lighter. I can provide a link to the statistics if you want, but I assume we can agree.

    Tall/heavy are better attributes for men than for women. I assume we can agree on that too.

    Why are black man-white woman marriages 2x more common than black woman-white man?

    In your experience, are there more white guys with Asian female fetishes, or more white women with Asian male fetishes?

  4. That is an interesting theory. I've heard someone say something similar and there must be some sort of logic behind it.

    "Asian fetish???"

    Fetish: Something, such as a material object or a nonsexual part of the body, that arouses sexual desire and may become necessary for sexual gratification.

    So, loosely summarized, "Something that you find sexually attractive, that shouldn't normally evoke such feelings"

    Sickens me when people use that phrase.

  5. Tim: Asian Fetish, Yellow Fever – call it what you may, but it is still the same.

    I have witnessed SO many instances of this – and being Asian myself, am not flattered and in fact a bit offended. I just came back from a 5-month trip through SE Asia, and MY GOODNESS there are SO many middle-aged white guys walking around there holding hands with some teenage Asian girl, it makes you believe that it is some sort of disease balding Western men catch in their 40s and 50s.

  6. For anyone who's interested, you can find height/weight data on different races at:

    http://www.halls.md/chart/height-weight.htm

    Black women are, on average, 20 pounds heavier than white women, but they're the same height. I'm not trying to be mean by making this comparison; I'm just saying that if people discriminate based on physical characteristics, they're also discriminating based on race.

    If you want to date a tall guy, you're more likely to pick a black or white guy than an Asian guy. If you want to date a slender woman, you're more likely to pick an Asian or white woman than a black woman.

    And I assume we can all agree that women like tall guys, and men like slender women.

  7. Wonderful theory.
    In fact, I am going to write a book based on the theory that men with large earlobes tend to go out with eskimos. Look around, it's so obvious. I'll make millions, appear on Dr. Phil and Larry King and make Oprah's book list. And if any of you steal this theory I'll come after both you and your masculine girlfiends.

  8. I think racial preferences are not only based on physical attributes, but also stereotypes about the personality of a certain race.

    For example, someone commented about the abundance of older white males in SE countries walking around with young Asian girls. I think this is common because of the fact that girls there are raised to be subservient, not just because of how they look.

  9. This post makes me wish you were all in my American Studies Colloquium at Barnard. We talk about this all the time. Some questions that came up the other day…Can you adopt a race? To what extent is it biological or a social construct? How many races are there? Will the day ever come when race doesn't exist?

    Interesting stuff. Stephanie, as an alum, you should come by and audit one day.

  10. "Quite interesting how we try smoke screen racism."

    Tovah, you are so RIGHT on. When you make generalizations or sterotypes based on race, it is racism.

    And I am not convinced "the abundance of older white males in SE countries walking around with young Asian girls" is because they are "taught" subsurvience. They are taught "white men will give you money if you sleep with them." It's always about the money.

  11. "A dainty little Asian giggling beneath an umbrella?" This is by itself a stereotype. I sometime hate the idea of Asian fixation being an Asian girl/woman myself. But at the end of the day, it does not matter. It is who you truly are and who he really is that matters when it comes to love not just date.

    I did something closer to this over the weekend, holding on to the arm of this guy (he is white by race if we have to go there) and smiled silently, under the umbrella, and we talked about Japanese girls giggling that he saw the other day and found so stereotypically funny. ;-(

  12. Being a SE Asian woman who was raised in SE Asia, I feel like screaming everytime I read/hear these stereotypes asserted like they're fact. Anyone who thinks SE Asian women are raised to be subservient is smoking crack. We just have a different way of moving about in the world — but subservient? Ha! Have any of you considered the reverse — that maybe Asian women go for Western/white guys because they (the guys) are in general have a less macho attitude problem than the guys in their hometowns? Or maybe are more tolerant of Asian women's assertiveness? That's how I ended up with my white guy (husband).

    I had a professor once who thought it was appropriate to state in my presence that there was less sexual dimorphism (physically apparent differentiation) between Asian men and women, as compared to say white men and women. He was white, of course, and couldn't see past his own racial blinders. If you grew up in Asia, the nasty stereotype you'd be familiar with is that white people all look alike, and the women are so masculine that it's difficult to tell them apart.

    And I think to most Asian women, Asian men in general are very masculine (i.e., hot), thank you very much.

    So you see it's all in the eye of the beholder.

    Ms Klein, you were right to roll your eyes at that guy.

  13. My point on the "Asian Fetish" is that it is demeaning. It is to say, "no one should be attracted to an Asian and if they are, they are deviant"

    Beauty comes in all shapes and colors. To tack on that adjective to one race is very 1980s and racist.

  14. "And I assume we can all agree that women like tall guys, and men like slender women."

    I can't believe you said that. First of all, you know what happens when you assume. Second, how can you know what all women and men like?

    Tovah has hit the nail RIGHT on the head. It is an American thing. It's f'ing beer commercial mentality. It's MTV, Maxim and FHM crap. THAT is what is being fed to you and THAT is what you believe. It's amazing to me that people think that way.

    I am a white woman and I have found many types of men attractive – from white to black, from short to tall, thin or fat. In fact, just last night I was watching a movie with Chi McBride (look him up if you don't know who he is) and thought he was SO attractive. And he is fat AND black. But he has "something" about him that drew me to him. I've seen him in several movie, playing different characters, so it's not the personality or character I like…it's his face and his build.

    Stephanie reinforces this type of thing. By constantly talking about her hair, her weight, her clothes, her friends and her trying to be thin and attractive to someone it shows how she also looks for that in a person. She hangs with those who are like her.

    I don't see any black women or men the pictures of her friends, do you? I don't see any overweight people. I think there might be an Asian chick, can't remember….but her group is mostly white and thin.

    We are not different races. We are all of the HUMAN RACE. Try to act like you're human, people, by looking at the beauty inside of someone instead of choosing to date someone because they are tall, thin or white.

  15. One day we will finally evolve. One day we will progress to a point that we can wallow in the masculinity of the other as a confirmation of our own masculinity — and likewise rejoice in the femininity of the other as a confirmation of that which is already within ourselves.

  16. It is all bullshiite and American. I think what is considered beautiful has been programmed into our brain on this continent. Black women are not beautiful, white women with blonde hair and blue eyes with large breast and slender hips are. Black men are beautiful but Asian men are too feminine. I find disturbing. Because again it is an American thing. Being a black woman I can hardly find a date on the American shores but when I go to Europe or Israel (ME) I am considered beautiful. Quite interesting how we try smoke screen racism. It is all the same animal.
    Thanks for the blog Steph.

  17. AnonymousButConcerned –

    Go on Match.com for a few minutes and browse. You'll find that ON AVERAGE women are looking for tall men and ON AVERAGE men are looking for slender women. I'm not saying what every single man/woman wants, merely that tall men are desired by more women, and slender women are desired by more men. Are you seriously disputing this?

    I'm not saying how things should be; I'm saying how they are. Shooting the messenger and/or pretending the message is incorrect won't solve anything.

  18. Anonymous,

    Nobody is saying we shouldn't challenge ourselves by sometimes breaking out of what feels comfortable and ask out someone who doesn't fit the generally accepted view of attractive; but, as I've gotten older, I've come to accept that there are some things that cannot be changed. For example, I accept that men generally experience more impulses for have sex because biologically our species demanded that to survive and produce the "fittest" , in terms of natural selection, daughter generation. Similarly, men find women with certain hip to waist ratios attractive. Research has shown that within a certain range its a sign of high fertility. While I'm sure this is not what men are deliberately thinking, do you believe the unconscious can always be circumvented or overridden? And I'm sure there would be similar examples for the case of women selecting males. People like doing what feels right. Constantly rethinking and second guessing oneself does not always bring loads of pleasure. In terms of evolution, why would it be beneficial for anyone to actively select overweight partners? It's correlated with poor health and lack of fertility. -that's my view on your comment regarding thin people. Perhaps it's callous, but I believe in the adage "Accept what you cannot change".

    I don't know what to say about the race issue. I'm white and my boyfriend is asian, so I can't help you there. (I do not have a asian "fetish" for the record) Although I suspect, (for the US only) that it could be related in terms of evolution, again. Minorities tend to not receive as many social benefits. It's advantageous in rearing children to select those who can best provide for the future. That would be the majority population.

    Sorry for the long post. I was a psychology major and I love this kind of stuff. Didn't mean to bore anybody….

  19. Wow, so much political correctness that i don't know where to start.

    First off, the person using the word 'fetish' probably didn't think about it and meant no harm.

    Second, for Average Asian Guy, maybe the reason that there are a lot of white guys in Asia with Asian girls is becuase MOST OF THE WOMEN IN ASIA ARE ASIAN. I mean, if I went to France on a 5-year assignment and got married, I'd probably be married to someone French.

    Third, for Tovah, you can't get a date here, but Europeans and Israelis think you're hot. what makes you think it's an American thing and not a European and Israeli thing? Maybe it's neither. Maybe, because there are so few blacks in those countries relative to America, you're considered exotic?

    Wait!!! Maybe that's why white Americans like Asian girls, because to us, they're exotic. Maybe that's why there's an overwhelming demand for white, female hookers in Asia, because to them, we look exotic.

    To anonymous but worried, yes, looks count. I pick my friends for personality, commonalities, etc. I picked my wife because I was attracted to her; physically and otherwise. If you find someone with a great personality, it still ddoesn't mean you have to marry them, you can still be friends. And there is nothing wrong with Steph for wanting to stay in shape and looking for someone who does likewise. I certainly want my wife and I to enjoy life when we retire. I always shied away from smokers for this reason.

    For C, providing for the future has limited benefits. I'd rather be with someone who'll be nice but decidedly middle-class for 60 years, than to be with someone miserable who's a good earner.

  20. 1. "Asian women are seen as submissive."

    Asian American women have an extremely high average education level in this country among all races. There are so many of successful Asian American women in medicine, law, academics, etc. Where do people get off seeing us as stupid and submissive and unambitious?

    2. "and men like slender women"

    This is a very cultural thing. I did an internship with a non-profit in the Malaysia – I was told that I looked too "frail" and I need to eat more almost every day. Even in this country, being slender isn't always the ideal – especially in African American and Hispanic communities. An extreme example of this, anorexia is a LOT more common among white women in this country than women of any other race.

  21. Everyone on this page has a bit of a bias…myself included.

    In any event exoticism does play into SOME peoples choice of mate or sexual partner…SOME people choose to stick with what the cultural norm tells them (skinny, fair and long hair is feminine per USA and to be fair many other cultures). Others go a bit further and do a bit of both => what pleases them physically AND mentally outside the cultural norm.

    I can also affirm Tovah's comment. 13%(black demographic) is not a huge population..and aside from TV and radio I doubt the average Majority american interacts with "minorities" on a normal basis… HOWEVER, being asked out by a white guy born and raised in the states is RARE RARE RARE RARE thing for me as a black female. A lot of that does have to do with "race","racism" and stereotypes in my personal experience of 34 years on this earth as an American and a lot of international travelling.

  22. So as someone who knows Stephanie I am conflicted, do I comment on the stupidity of assuming she has no black or asian friends or let the ignorance continue. No black or asian friends? C'mon.

  23. Novemebrgrace-the submissive thing is a misinterpreation of a lot of Asian culture. I deal with the Japanese on a daily basis, I know many of them fairly well, and I've been over there to visit. I like the Japanese, but culturally, they're different from us. Much less assuming, more humble, more shy, more respectful. All attributes that I value and that I try to emulate. However, some people view these same traits as being 'submissive', which it isn't. OTOH, you sequed from submissive to submissive, stupid and unambitious, and I don't see where anyone mentioned that.

    BlackChick/Tovah-I agree that white men marrying black women seems to be extremely rare, even in comparison to white women with black men. But rather than exchanging uninformed, I'd be interested in hearing from someone that is either better at surfing the web, more knowledgeable about demographics, and simply more motivated than me. How does the US compare to France or Germany on inter-racial marriages? all I remember was the big tennis star moving here with his black wife because Germany was more racist than we are. I suspect it had to do with more favorable tax rates than racism, but that was his excuse for moving here. Does anyone have some real stats?

  24. The definition of "submiss" is to be humble. "Submissive" means to submit without resistance, to be docile, yielding. "Submit" means to refer to others for decision, consideration. Why is this word considered to be an insult? We submit every day; to our employers, to our friends, to our partners. There is no shame in submission. To know when to yield to someone else is a strength. (We also do it in traffic, hopefully – or we'd be dead!!)

    To C, ridiculous arguments – to those of us who do not believe in evolution. As a fellow psychology grad, analyzing people requires that you understand their backgrounds first and foremost. Our backgrounds determine what and who we find attractive. But even this can be overcome! Take off those blinders. Question this research. Who did it? What was the subject demographic? What were the researchers trying to prove? Many times, we conduct research to prove something we already believe to be true, which colors the results. Additionally, just FYI, the study showed that men are attracted to women with certain waist to hip "ratios", this does not mean "thin vs. heavy" – just that men are, according to this study, attracted to a woman with a curvy shape, big or small.

    Crazy is right, Steph. You have more attractive options if you don't think like this "MID"! Think of all the wonderful women he's passing over because of his tunnel vision.

  25. Dear Dru, Maybe you are proud of yourself for being submissive, I – on the other hand – am proud of myself when I am able to think and act independently.

    I'm a med student, and I don't "submit" to my supervisers without "resistance." I am under their guidance and take their advice, but if my supervisers mistreat a patient or blatantly make mistakes, I will speak out. Just because you respect others does NOT mean you have to submit to them.

  26. Tovah said:

    "And Hispanic women actually by demographics tend to be the shortest and the heaviest out of all the ethnic groups…"

    Nope; Hispanic women are shortest, but they're 20 lbs lighter than Black women. Here's the data (again):

    http://www.halls.md/chart/height-weight.htm

    All I've been trying to say is:
    1) Men and women have preferences on body shapes and sizes (tall men, slender women)
    2) Ethnic groups have genetic tendencies toward body shapes and sizes
    3) Consequently, some ethnic groups are judged to be ON AVERAGE more attractive than others.

    I can understand why people don't like that, but I can't understand why people disagree.

  27. As far as being exotic in Europe and in Israel is hogwash. Black Americans make up 13% of the American population. In israel, blacks (mostly ethiopians, and west africans) make up 10% of the population and don't be fool there are alot ALOT of Africans in Europe. Especially London and Paris. Again like I said it is American thing on the race issue. Hence African-American, Hispanic. Latin-American, Asian-American, who does this crap but Americans? As far as the body goes I will not dispute that we like people to look healthy but to say that all black women or fa and all white are skinny is again bullshiite. I have seen plenty of fat white women. And Hispanic women actually by demographics tend to be the shortest and the heaviest out of all the ethnic groups and yet 50% of them marry non-hispanic men whereas only 2-4% of black women marry non-black men. Hmmm.. i am starting to see a pattern here.

    As far as Stephanie goes, I don't thin it is wrong that she doesn't have black friends. She is somewhat of a socialite and therefor will hang out with people in that realm. We tend to be around people who are more like us. That my friends IS human nature.
    T

  28. Dru, for a psychology grad you should know there is a sub-field called physio-psychology where structures and formation (evolution) of the brain are studied. Structure and biology impacts behavior and is therefore relevant to the study of psychology. Of course environment plays a role. As with most behaviors, it's a combination of both. We'll just have to agree to disagree on evolution.

    And for the record, let's not blame the low intermarriage between black woman and non-black men wholey on white americans. My white cousin is married to a black woman. They live in a middle class area of DC and she frequently hears disparaging comments from other black women for her choice. It's not supported by the african american community 100%, either. -just trying to be fair.

  29. Joey B do you really need stats? Tovah has posted some. Why dont you just ask your non black American male friends. How many would date a black woman and how many would marry one. If I want to get asked out by a guy I find mentally and physically attractive.. I have to leave the country. (Although a cute Belgian boy did invite me out last week).

    Im not and many other minority women are not hung up on skin tone or ethnicity. BUT its a challenge finding an American that feels the same AND that is interested in trying to explore a serious relationship (ie something other than just sex).

  30. th 14 you wrote:

    All I've been trying to say is:
    1) Men and women have preferences on body shapes and sizes (tall men, slender women)
    2) Ethnic groups have genetic tendencies toward body shapes and sizes
    3) Consequently, some ethnic groups are judged to be ON AVERAGE more attractive than others.

    I can understand why people don't like that, but I can't understand why people disagree.

    ***********

    You've missed the point that many people have been making that your CULTURAL upbringing skews your individual perception of what is beautiful.

    Therefore your point number 3 is a PERSONAL and CULTURALLY learned assumption.

    Net: Whether or not Asian, White, Black or Indian is more or less beautiful than another is in the eye of the beholder. Especially the beholder writing the reports you've been reading.

  31. AnonBlackChick-

    Yes, I do need stats. I'm a numbers-person, and my study of statistics in grad school at least educated me enough to see how easily they are skewed. Even on Tovah's response, she compares London to America.

    Using my own NYC as an example, there is a substantial percentage of blacks that marry Hispanics. I'd bet every dollar I have that it is waay in excess of 2%, maybe more like 25%, although I have not a shred of evidence for this number. But the point would still be the US v London thing. The higher the percentage of integration, probably the higher the percentage of inter-racial marriage. Let's say you have 3 cities, one black, one white, and one with 25% of each black, hispanic, white and Asian. The inter-racial marriage percentage of the first two cities will be extremely low, and the ratio of the third city would be relatively huge.

    But in answer to your question to me, everyone I know has married within their race, and this includes blacks, Japanese, Korean, Hispanics, and whites, and within their religion. Furthermore, the majority of the Irish I know have married other Irish, and the Italians have married other Italians. Not all of them, but more than 50%. This is not a values call, but it is interesting.

    BTW Steph, you can contact Julian and tell him that we do discuss important topics, but just not hurricanes and economics.

  32. NovGrace, perhaps our understanding of the word "submit" differs. I don't see it as slinking around following orders like some kind of zombie-doormat. When I submit to someone else, it's by choice, not blind obedience. Trust me, I am perfectly capable of independent thought! There is a time to stand up for what's right, and there is a time to be humble and yield. The strength comes from having the "grace" to know the difference. That's all I'm sayin'.

    And C, yes, I'm aware of the various fields of study. That doesn't mean I have to buy it, right? I AM capable of independent thought, after all!!

    Provacative post, Steph. Enjoying the banter tremendously. Thanks!

  33. Anon Black Chick wrote:

    You've missed the point that many people have been making that your CULTURAL upbringing skews your individual perception of what is beautiful.

    Therefore your point number 3 is a PERSONAL and CULTURALLY learned assumption
    ================

    No, I haven't missed this at all — I agree with you.

    I'm only saying that my culture (the USA) prefers its men tall and its women slender, and that works in favor of some groups and against others because of those groups's genetic tendencies. What part of that don't you agree with?

  34. Dru, I never said you had to buy the biology/evolution arguments. I offered them as a reasonable explanation for behavior we observe today. You're being indignant.

    You obviously have a disdain for some scientific research. Fine. That doesn't give you an excuse for lack of social grace in conversation…. "ridiculous arguments" and your allusion that I am not thinking for myself because by contrast you are. It's not my fault the theory you choose to subscribe to has little scientific support. Whatever happened to politely disagreeing?

    I know, I know; I'm being being dramatic. -Dru is mild compared to what Stephanie gets on some days….

  35. Stats
    America- 2% of the black women marry non-black men; 4% black men marry non-black women
    London- 33% of black women marry non-black men: 45% black men marry non-black women.

    These statistics may have change since I did my study last year but they are pretty accurate. I don't know about France or Germany. I can't find statistics on it.
    I would never say that Steph doesn' have black friends, I don't know her and he assumption was made on photos presented by the other reader. To me it doesn't matter. I wouldn't care if Steph was a cross burning hood wearing neo-nazi. I still like her and the spunk that she has. She is a great chick.
    Keep up the work Steph!

  36. th14, I'm part of the USA culture, and my preferences don't fall within the "tall men" category. Just fyi. Anybody else?

  37. I meant England vs USA. And England is a smaller country folks. Hmmm. Again let's think about it/ And as far as hispanic women being 20lbs lighter than black women, I am sure your one measily source was correct but being a fashion merchandising major with many sources, we have been taught that hispanic women (mostly mexican-american) tend to be the shortest and the heaviest which is why the women's category of clothing is being pushed more as well as the petite and black women are not genetically prone to being fat, take a look at alot of the African women, it is the diet in this country that causes the problem. When you are poorer you tend to eat whatever you can afford.

    -The person who's cousin married a black woman, great point and one I planned to make but forgot to. Black American women are trained nay brain washed and guilted in to believing that to be happy is to be with or marry a black man. I have more friends who think I am crazy for being attracted to men of all races because there is nothing like a black man, whereas black men are not shackled with this guilt.

    Also, a lot of black women are afraid that white men only want to date them for sex but never marry them. They fear being seen as just an exotic creature to mount. Again stereotypes, myths and racism color our choices and our attraction. We can go on and on about this damn subject. Shiite I won't say anymore.

    T

  38. I apologize for the use of the word "ridiculous". That was a poor choice of words.

    However, I'm not angry in the least. I have no disdain for research – (well, okay, maybe some…) – or think any less of you for your beliefs. I was making a joke about me being "capable of thinking independent thoughts" (related back to a comment someone else made to me earlier) I know, you can't see my facial expressions. So I will submit, and agree to disagree. As fellow psych lovers – still friends? (Dru extends olive branch….) Peace.

  39. My "one measily (sic) source" is more commonly known as "The US Government." Specifically, the Center for Disease Control's survey of 33,994 Americans over a 6 year period.

  40. IMHO, this was Steph's best topic yet. There was a lot of varied responses from a lot of people, and even though this borders on a hot-button issue, most of the responses were fairly polite. Culture v genetics v race.

  41. To my submissive friend Dru,

    If you truly believe that your definition of the word "submissive" is how most English speakers define the word, if you truly believe that the word "submissive" is used mostly in a positive light, then I suggest this: start complimenting your friends, co-workers, and even supervisers with said adjective. See what happens!

  42. th14 said, "my culture (the USA)prefers its men tall and its women slender."

    As if there is only one culture in America; as if what Caucasian men perceive as beatiful is THE American ideal. Please start recognizing that there are many cultures in American that appreciates wide ranges of beauty.

  43. There is a fundamental flaw in this whole discussion:SINCE WHEN IS BEING SKINNY AND FLAT AS A BOARD CONSIDERED MORE FEMININE?

    I grew up in the Latin culture. I will pick a real woman with curves over a giggly waif under an umbrella any day.

  44. Yeah it was fun. No hard feelings here. I take back my critique, Dru. Say most of whatever you want. I sometimes forget it isn't as fun when people are always polite. I think I'd rather have it be interesting.

  45. Novembergrace wrote: "Please start recognizing that there are many cultures in American that appreciates wide ranges of beauty."

    Of course — I'd never deny this. I have no doubt that some women love short, bald men with crooked teeth. I also have no doubt that MORE women prefer tall men with full heads of hair and straight teeth.

    Every pot has its lid, but some pots can fit more lids than others. And genetics, in part, determines the size and shape of the pot and the lid. I'm sincerely surprised anyone disagrees with that.

  46. Novembergrace – Not trolling, just bored and sick on a rainy day. And, to be honest, probably venting some of my own "issues" – the post struck a nerve.

    I'll knock it off – I guess this horse died a couple of days ago. No offense or disrespect intended.

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